Villi V

United States

Hi, I want to understand everyone
he/they i think lol idk
#blacklivesmatter

also. music? love it. very cool, would recommend

Message to Readers

a

Response to The Bible Challenge_Ibex_Part 1

January 12, 2021

FREE WRITING

13
Hi! I am Victor. I am atheist. Here’s a response to the points you made in your piece. I wrote this relatively quickly, so it’s a bit unpolished and all that, but yeah. Take a look, and respond if u feel like it! If you have small questions or whatever dm me on discord, Villi V#0904.

Point 1.1:
You say that “an atheist’s viewpoint has no answer for these questions, because the answer relies on the assumption of a moral code.” However, this is a logical fallacy: you're assuming that a moral code assumes the existence of a deity to supply the moral code. I believe it comes from evolution. 

But! You say a moral code cannot come from evolution. I disagree. Humans evolved to have empathy. Empathy, being able to relate to other humans and imagine what they are going through, evolutionarily benefits us. It allows us to care for others: if no one fed the hungry or healed the sick, a small tribe/family would quickly die out. If a small tribe couldn’t survive without empathy, we would never make it to large societies, and societies are largely what make humans so successful. (Makes us less likely to be killed and more likely to reproduce.) Being killed and being raped is an immensely painful thing for the victim. We have an evolutionary empathy to be disgusted by these acts because we subconsciously imagine how the victim felt. Extending this logic, black lives matter because not being respected or cared about is also extremely painful. Our empathy wants everyone to not experience pain and be happy, and being considered to not matter makes one unhappy.

A challenge to your belief that a god must provide a moral code: if a god provides our moral code, why do moral codes differ from person to person? From Christian to Christian?

Point 1.2:
You commit another logical fallacy here. The origin of life is not known. You say: since the origin of life is not known, god must exist. I say only: the origin of life is not known. Actually, scientists have some ideas about abiogenesis, but this happened at least 3.5 billion years ago — we cannot study what really happened, only theorize. In order to understand it further, I did some research online. I am, and I assume you are, woefully under qualified in astrobiology, biochemistry, biophysics, geochemistry, molecular biology, oceanography and paleontology to understand half of this research; therefore, it is useless for us to debate it.

Before I realized how underqualified I was, I wrote this:
Besides, it is more likely for life to appear than you think. Earth is the only planet known to have life form on it. In the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast universe and amount of planets we have discovered, life only formed once.  You make the analogy of shaking a bucket of half a million words until a novel is spelled out. So you can think of it like every planet in the universe is a bucket, and every planet is constantly shaking a bucket over more than 14 billion years, or 14,000 million years, or 14,000,000,000 years. And now consider: life fits to evolve to its environment. Some environments like earth are incredibly conducive to life! In my mind, this makes things even more likely. I am getting ahead of myself. 

I should repeat, I recognize that we are both woefully under qualified to speak on this subject. Thus, it is useless to argue about something we couldn’t hope to understand.

Point 1.3:
1. The origin of life is not known. This does not mean that some high power chose to create life. Also, we are both under qualified to speak on this subject, so debating it is useless.
2. Evolution is more efficient in sexual reproduction. Check out this source. https://www.news.ucsb.edu/2001/011513/sexual-vs-asexual-reproduction-scientists-find-sex-wins Scientists made two different populations of fruit flies, the first they genetically modified to reproduce asexually, the second left alone. Then they mutated the genes of some of the flies in each population to have a more beneficial eye color (I think white, if I remember correctly). In the sexual population, this gene became common much more quickly than compared to the asexual population.
3. I’m glad you find thinking about the world as being created for you is more beautiful than otherwise. I find that the world coming together by natural laws and physics and chemistry to form a beautiful thing beautiful. I find that the form of organisms fitting their function is beautiful, and the awe in the history of natural geological patterns is beautiful.
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If you choose to respond, I ask only two things. The first, that you acknowledge all of my points (as I think I did to your piece), and the second, that we remain civil! 

I realized this is kinda condescending, so read this next bit with a grain of salt: As you are well aware, debates that turn into emotion and feelings and opinions become not evidence-based and unhelpful for all.
Have a lovely day, and happy new year :)
I should say that from what I have read of the bible and heard of Jesus's teachings, I agree with a lot of the philosophy. However, I don't see why we should view the bible as a religion instead of just reading the teachings of Jesus as philosophy, like I read Plato or books on Taoism.

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  • January 12, 2021 - 8:59pm (Now Viewing)

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11 Comments
  • Karma's_Coming

    Aight so I asked around and apparently the Bible is a religious work and not philosophy because it’s a book of true stories and events, not teachings. We take the stories and turn them into teachings for our personal lives, and that’s kind of what it was intended for, but they’re really just events. Like that one verse about how there was 100 sheep, but one was missing, so the Shepard went after the one sheep because that was the one in need. It’s just a story that we can interpret as advice to help people who need it, even if you need to make sacrifices to do so. I think that makes sense. But your question makes a good point, I’ll probably keep that one in the noggin for later.


    11 days ago
  • Anne Blackwood

    Thanks for writing this! It's nice to hear your perspective on things.


    12 days ago
  • Abigail Faith

    I wasn't meaning physically. I know our bodies die. I was meaning what happens to your soul? Or do you even believe we have a soul? I'm honestly just curious. Hearing all this is new to me.

    I agree, the amount of authors does NOT correlate to the correctness of any book. In that light, we can find it even more astonishing that their stories do, in fact, line up! If the Bible is a big book of lies, these authors must have been incredible, to have every detail coming from the 40 of them match up perfectly!

    You said you don't know how life began, and that does not mean God exists.
    Neither does my knowing how life began, mean God does not exist.

    I just want you to know, I hope there's no hard feelings. I hope I have not offended you at all. :) :)


    12 days ago
  • musicmaker

    Re: Hey! Thank you for replying and for being bold enough to state your opinion! I mean this as friendly debate, not as argument but I do want to ask you a couple questions. Here, you point out fallacies, but unfortunately, you are using a fallacy to do it. Everything you argue is based on your belief in evolution. However, evolution (micro-evolution is the only kind ever been proven) is based on the second law of Thermodynamics. That law states that everything goes from order to disorder, not from disorder to order. Supposing you are right and the world came into being through the big bang, then the earth was created out of disorder and cannot come into order. The big bang assumes that something exploded and made a highly complex, organized universe. But this is the same as assuming that you could shake a box of puzzle pieces and dump out a fully completed puzzle. The earth is completely perfect to support life. If it was in a different place by even a small amount we would all either burn up or freeze. In my opinion, an explosion cannot make anything this perfect.

    Also, you are assuming that morality is based on empathy that comes from evolution. But... empathy is good. Evolution causes decay, not improvement. If we all started out as monkeys or whatever it is you believe, then it could only get worse, not better, seriously, that's scientifically proven! We would have to have started out as perfect beings and decayed, which, if you are a Jesus follower, you believe. But, supposing once more that we started out as perfect beings and evolved empathy, we still couldn't evolve empathy because we would have had to start out with it. You can only ever lose genes, not gain them. Information is only ever lost in evolution, not gained. Did that make sense? What would you say?
    Thanks, have a great day!


    12 days ago
  • anonymous_123

    Yes I actually wanted to add in my long, sorry, comment what Abigail Faith said. Where do you think Life started? From nothing? From evolution?


    12 days ago
  • Ibex

    Thanks for the response! I'm working on a response to your questions, but I'm not sure when I'll finish with it. (I'm working on Part 2 of my original piece, so that might push back when another piece gets done.)


    12 days ago
  • Abigail Faith

    I have a question!! Sooo... Where do YOU think life began?


    12 days ago
  • HelpMe512

    Awesome piece, really well said!


    12 days ago
  • anonymous_123

    Ok you did make a very good point! You see this is what the challenge is about getting to have an opened mind! I definitely had an open mind about this so thank you for that. However, I do not agree. Yes I think part of it came from evolution (moral code) but I also think it came from God. And again Christians and other Christians don’t have the same moral code because of free will and their choices, what they want to do. But I still believe that we know what’s right and wrong. That brings my point of atheist to atheist don’t have same moral code then how does evolution make that? See to be honest no matter how much we debate (not argue) we get down to the same questions. As a Christian. I want to hear your perspectives and I agree with fairly most of them to be honest. Yes, I do. But it’s the fact that I believe that there is actually a God and that I think I can prove it. So yes your points may be valid but I think my points, the other creators, points are too. Part of it I think it is because it’s hard for us to just prove God and easier for an atheist to disprove Him. So I get your points, but we did work hard to find proof. About the evolution thing please read my Bible challenge day 1 piece about the universe and tell me what you think! Thank you for getting me to have an open mind in this piece! You guys do have the right to answer these just like we have the right to write them so I respect that.


    12 days ago
  • anonymous_123

    Re: because God gave us free will that’s why. This answers all the questions that you asked in my comments! God gave us the choice. How would you like it if someone forced you to love them? He gives us free will. He has the power yes but he’s not forceful


    12 days ago
  • EliathRose

    OK, I really like this piece. I’m just liking it so I remember to comment later!


    13 days ago